Here's Ike again with another guest post. This time he waxes long and eloquent on the most efficient use of Space Marines as allies for my upcoming Guard army.
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[Sometimes your honored host Gabe discusses 40K stratagems with his friend Ike over the Internet. Usually I deliver rambling-but-comprehensive evaluation of his inquiry in far greater depth than he had ever asked for and in more detail than he will ever need. Sometimes I am tired or distractible when I give these evaluations. These evaluations are almost always delivered with little to no actual prompting from Gabe, and nearly always expand to several times the length I initially though they would be. This time Gabe saw fit to have my rambling recorded and put up on his blog.
After-the-fact commentary from me is in Italicized brackets. Spelling, grammatical, ethical, and rules-related errors have been preserved for authenticity.] -Ike
Ike: What Guard do you have so far?
Gabe: 2 Russes, 1 chimera, just over 20 Guardsmen, a few sarges, about 6 special weapons models, 4 heavy weapons teams, and the original command squad you gave me years ago.
Gabe: i'm debating whether to invest in a hydra battery or lightning flyers. hydra would be sensible, but Lightnings are rad, and they go with the theme of “NATO/Counter-Strike" army.
[I feel the same way about Mek Gunz vs Dakkajets.]
Ike: I'm looking and that model count and guessing you plan to run the guardsmen as special weapon toiting vet squads, how close am i?
Gabe: and don't forget my love of things with treads is equalled by my love of loud fast things with wings.
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| One thing I love (and eventually hope to see on my own shelf) |
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| Another thing I love, and wish I had more of, in any form or faction. |
Ike: I kinda see what your going for composition wise (although non-mechanized heavy weapon teams seem a bit out of place but not to badly)
Gabe: heavy wpns squads are there if i want to make my infantry non-mech for whatever reason
Ike: I was more wondering why you'd have heavy weapon teams without chimeras when you could just get tanks with similar guns on them, but I think thats me overfocusing on stylistic theme then anything substansial. I do belive I have a couple shotgun arms floating around, probably not enougth to outfit a whole squad with but sounds like something you'd want to know all the same.
Gabe: heavy weapons can be their own squad (last i checked), so they can be my backfield objective-holders
[Well, if those objectives are contested they won’t last long enough for ObSec to matter.]
Gabe: Seeing as i have 3 metal melta dudes, i would probably go carapace armour or demolitions.
Gabe: stick 'em in the chimera, run 'em up to the target, jump out, kill it, and pray to the Emperor for a good death.
[All good ideas, but a bit too much overlap between them for me to really call it efficient. Meltagunners in a transport would have difficuly putting their meltabombs to use in assault.]
Ike: also note that that have an extra CCW in their wargear and can replace their lasguns with shotguns freely, which to me smells like a cool and fluffy objective stealer/counter assault unit
Gabe: i can dig it.
Ike: If you gave them Grenadiers on top of that you'd fit in nicely with your NATO/SWAT/CS vibe (although I think we discussed las-P-90 conversions with a similar train of thought in mind a while ago). Might have an excuse to put all those arbitates conversion guides to good use, even if its just for the seargent.
Ike: Which almost-sensabley segues into some thoughts I had involving use of your space bean models as an allied detachment.
Ike: Space Marines not being your main makes sense given that these guardsmen will fufill your need for TRUE AND LOYAL SERVENTS OF THE EMPEROR while Necrons are both deader and arder then they are.
Ike: So I'm looking at min sized allied detachments can to to fill gaps in this IG army rather then standing on their own. (Just to make sure, you decided on Justice Knights for the name, right?)
Ike: (Because that's to cool a name to go unused and I like what you did with that test marines paint scheme in that new years post on your blog)
Ike: SO
Gabe: Justice Knights is the working name for them, yes, likely to be the final name.
Ike: Lets think of what Imperial Guard CAN'T do that Space Marines do well
[This should be your #1 consideration when building allied detachments of any sort but today’s special is Codex Marine Allies in support of the Imperial Guard.]
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| Allies: how not to bring them. |
Gabe: What IG can’t do well? Assault quick, move quick, and survive multiple rounds in CC come to mind.
[IG can actually be pretty zippy when they really want to be but that’s more build specific and everything else is pretty consistent across guard armies.]
Ike: With an eye toward minimalist detachments of a tac squad, support HQ and a few upgrades, no more points than a tank or two.
[I of course am thinking of the various classes of Leman Russ here.]
Gabe: that and weather a storm of fire.
Gabe: for once, a psyker would be handy.
Gabe: why oh why did the warp portal below my dresser swallow my librarian, oh why.
[I myself have a Khorne Bezerker Model who has been lost in the warp since before I even properly started on my CSM army. But I know he’s still out there somewhere, he has claimed two skull bitz that rolled off my workspace during recent conversions.]
Ike: Aye, although my inner Iron Father would like to point out that no one loves cover saves more than 5+ armor infantry I am forced to admit that a Librarian is the best call overall in this case.
Ike: While Rhinos and Razorbacks work great in an Astartes-majority army all they really do here is stuff the guard units will either do comparably to or better then.
[Short version explanation is because of the particulars of how combat/tactical squads and their weapon options synergize with these transports.]
Ike: The Drop Pod will be the marines ride of choice here for multiple reasons.
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| Squad Dakon deploys with an Objective Secured Drop Pod on an Objective in the Lahker lines. |
Ike: 1) Getting those nice and sturdy ObSec bostingboasting AV 12 and 3+ save right to the most hotly contested objective where they need to be. Making a huge contribution to board control and taking the heat of their squishier comrades.
Ike: 2) Synergy with other guard units. Take a loacter beacon whenever possible, the reason you won't have the DP filled with a suicide melta dread is because there are already guard units that can do the same job either cheaper or better. Not having to worry about DS mishaps in a 12" radius around a model that's already going to be in the thick of things will do wonders in limiting the number of unpleasent suprises that would crop up otherwise.
Ike: 3) Is versitility, you know firsthand how much it hurts to be the gunline army that got outplayed in the deployment phase and opening moves. The DPs ability to be wherever it needs to be combined with the flexability of your libarian's psychic disipline choices means you'll almost never be caught /entirely/ off guard.
[Check the “battle report” tag for examples of this in action.]
Gabe: screencapped, thank you for your tactical insight.
Ike: with me so far? I'm about to segue into upgrades and other potential units to include
Ike: Normally I'd talk about what units to take before going on about upgrades, but seeing as were focusing in specific contributions they can make to an IG list we're starting with upgrades to the Librarian and Tac squad inside. (quick aside, I'd say get the DP locater beacon if you have other DSin units but otherwise leave it be unless you have loadsa spare points and a buch of other mid-teir AV to saturate the field with otherwise it gets to be too big a target)
Ike: Now the Tac squad I'd say go full the full ten unless you have a very good reason not to. That way you can have a single KP in an ObSec unit if their survival is in doubt or two units of 5 that can to more than one thing at once.
[This is partly an adaptation of lessons learned playing CSM and comparing plague marines to barebones CSM blobs with the Icon of Vengeance. FnP and special rules can be bypassed; bodies take a bit of extra effort.]
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| The CSM-Icon-of-Vengeance-objective-holdin' blob in action. |
Ike: They should definately have a special weapon. All of them will do what you need them too provided you keep in mind how the guardsmen are armed in a given list. It is worth noteing that they would be your only way to get grav-weaponry, but the ol' reliable flamer makes for an amazing psychological deterent and plasma guns rarely dissapoint in any enviornment.
Ike: Heavy weapons are not a must have in this case. The guard have plenty of guns on their own and the disembarking/Drop pod rules mean that heavy weapons will be snap firing on the turn they drop as well. Depending on the particulars a heavy weapon might still be worth taking, but it must be chosen with care. Plasma cannons have too much overlap with most popular big guns of the guard, can't fire the turn they land and might kill your likeholding T4 body with a spell of bad luck, making it the one weapon I'd ignore for this particular squad in all cases. The only other heavy weapon of note is the multi-melta, whose increased range over the standard melta means that it can afford to lean closer to objectives and area terrain while still having fair odds of getting its bonus.
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| My (mis)use of Space Marine allies. |
Ike: How you kit the seargent is more a matter of personal taste then the others. If you want to keep your Librarian safe from beefy challengers a power maul or combat sheild could give the unit the edge it needs to last that extra turn of assault, but by the same token those points could be spent on either the librarian or guard units, both of whom have a great range of attractive options in a similar points range. His proximity to the foe means that pistols are arguably a better buy here, but I'd advise that they be useful against the same catagory of units of whatever special weapon you picked.
Ike: The Librarian I'd kit for either endurace or buffs depending on the guard list. He can already take on most seargents and expect to come out on top but folunders against even modestly upgraded close combat HQs. Think of him more as an attachment to the tac squad than a proper IC, don't make him your warlord if you can help it because even safeish bets are too big a risk on your poor lil' space wizard getting a VP punched out of him. The only real upgrade I'd strongly consider for him at all would be giving him is the additional mastery level due to the guards comparatively anemic selection of psykers. Don't give in to the temptation of the Sheild Eternal unless your in at least a 1750 point game, Eternal Warrior dosen't mean that much when you only have two wounds.
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| My Librarian, no doubt wishing he had a commander who possessed more than five minutes' forethought. |
Ike: That's it for unit-specifc upgrades, next up is more general discussion of what (if any) space marine units would work well with this detachment, then I'll finish with some thoughts on chapter tactics.
Ike: SO are you still awake after all that?
Gabe: Though my eyelids feels heavier than before, i have requesitioned coffee to pull me through.
Gabe: Start writing another guest article already.
[YOU CHOSE THIS PATH GABRIEL]
Ike: I hereby that these spontanius entrys be thusly blogged bearing the tag "sleepy strategios sermon"
Ike: We've gone over the fact that the guard have pleanty of heavy weapons, beefy tanks, and deepstrikers of their own and past turn 2-3 will be perfectly able to support the tac squad from the ground, assuming it even became an issue. So we'll stay focused on what guardsmen simply can't do at all.
Ike: First on the list is jump packing assault squads (and vanguard vets by exstension). Jump infantry are something the guard simply don't have and while assault squads are just "OK" compared to to most big leauge assault units they still stand head and shoulders above most "assault" focused guardsmen squads. That they can choose to deepstrike means that they have the option of either jumping up the board from turn 1 OR deepstriking based on how favoravble the terrain is for one or the other (Did you remember to take that Locater Beacon on the drop pod? I sure hope you did). A pair of flamers for a five man squad will roast any guardsmen-like target who thought he could beat REAL guardsmen at the cover camping game and will generally have the mobility to avoid being forced to punch above their weight class. Conversely a kitted out seargent and/or eviserators can make for a decent headhunting unit, but like the flamer squad they can't take as well as they give and unlike the flamer squad they actually need to make their charge roll and suvive whatever hits before them. Don't get greedy on the offence and don't get to spendy on such a comparatively fragile unit. By the same token if you're going to take vanguard squads you may as well go all the way and opt for one of the formations that will let them make the most of themselves. Indeed, if you can trust your guardsmen to hold the line then formations such as the 1st Company Task Force and Shadowstrike Kill Team are much better sources of raw assault phase killing power then a simply allied detachment.
Ike: The only other unit that offers something the guard need help with are Terminators (both assault and standard). I wouldn't bother giving them much as their already costly and as the only 2+ saves in the army their primairy role will be to stand between the most threatening thing the enemy has and the rest of the army and avoid dying/instantly/. They don't have Obsec so they can't simply hold out on whatever objective they land on like the tac squad and arriving from reserve (as nearly every other unit in the army will be better able to get their under their own power then termies) means that they are going to be sent to stauch the bleeding wherever the sluggiest slugfest on the board is. Standard termies with an assault cannon are a classic and heavy flamers are exactly the sort of thing they'll need to clear out stubborn infantry out of area terrain. Chainfists are debateble, but its their cheapist upgrade and it only takes one to make that difference where it does matter. Cyclone missiles are to be left at home as there are half a dozen IG units that do the job you want these termies to do better and cheaper. Assault terminaitors have their usual issue of spending the turn of their arrival doing nothing but if you simply MUST have some sturdy objective holder wiped out in assault they've got some of the best chances to do it, assuming that you can keep them alive long enougth to reach their target. Don't spend much more then 200 points on them and don't field them with more then the minimum model count unless you REALLY have faith in your 2+ saves. Don't leave home without at least one other locater beacon to take over for when that Drop Pod gets killed.
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| This has no relevance to the post, but I don't care because parkour Terminator. |
Ike: I'm limiting myself to the tactics that actually halp them halp the guard
Ike: (also skipped over bikes but they have too much overlap with transports and rough riders and assault squads and you don't have the models anyway lol)
Ike: Ultramarines will be noted merely to point out that combat dotrines suck in detachments this small because you're only gaining a fraction of the benifits.
Ike: Imperial Fists (Including Sentinels of Terra) are OK because bolter buffs help out nearly all your units and the lascannon devistaitors gaining tank hunters means that you actually have reason to consider them over the IG altherative units who don't.
Ike: Salamanders is as flamer-centric as ever and I still feel like having a 4+ FnP roll that you only get against a certan catagory of weapons is my go-to example of a stuational benifit.
[Salamander players might be some of the chilliest guys on the face of the earth but I really do not like how functionally half of their special rules are functionally “locked” inside an unique special character. I get that I could just make my own model and call him an identical nephew, but it’s just not the saaaaame.]
Ike: Raven Guard have an easier time getting themselves there in one piece and the increased odds of night fighting is a minor plus, but its a minor plus that benifits the squishies their here to support. Something most Chapter Tactics miss out on. The go-to tactic if are REALLY counting on those assault squads to keep your gunline from being eaten alive.
Ike: Iron Hands remains awesome, but not as awesome as it usually is because of how few multi-wound models/Dreadnoughts are there to benifit.
[I didn’t know offhand whether or not their repair bonus is applied to repairing Imperial Guard tanks.]
Ike: Black Templars have the unique combo of buying Land Raider Crusaders as dedicated transports for their crusader squads. Toss in your choice of Emperors Champion, Chaplain, or Chapter Master if your in a deadhstarry mood and you've got a plug-and-purge armored assault murderball which only gets angrier when you kill it and works wornderfully not just for guardsmen, but for any Imperial army that need serious hitting power in the assault phase. Notably contrasts with other Chapter Tactics in that the only "pure support" HQ you're even allowed to bother with is a techmarine with a servo-harness to weld the LRC back together as its being blasted apart by heathen lasers.
Ike: Combine with the Death Korps of Kreig and some mechanized Sorartas for The Most Imperial List Ever
Ike: Red Scorpions positively shine in purely minimalists DP detachments as ONLY their tacticals get TRUE FnP but they all also reroll failed pinning tests. Scouts not being allowed camo close dosen't matter because you have guardsmen for cover camping anyway.
Gabe: Hmmm...
Ike: Space Sharks (astra carcharodons) are kind of like cousins to the templars as Tyberos The Red Wake allows for him to have a single unit of assault terminaitors taken as troops provided they only take dual LCs. If you go this route it means that you're not even pretending that their going to be grabbing objectives, but thats not going to matter because everyone else will be dead. Also they have Fear, tactials that can buy an extra CCW like Chaos Marines and gain Rage if they kill/break a unit in assault. None of that matters because you stopped reading once you saw the words "assault terminaitors taken as troops".
[I still don’t see the problem with them having Space Sharks for a name, making it Latin doesn’t make it any less silly it just take three times as many syllables to say.]
Gabe: I would finally be able to field my poor, lonely termies again.
Ike: Executioners get turbo-stubborn and rolls to would of 6 in challenges instadeath. Boring, but the sort of thing you'd want if you were REALLY counting on your lone tac squad to hold that objective after the pod gets blown up.
Ike: Red Hunters are punk rock grey knights who get to pick a nifty USR from a list of six (Counter-attack, Monster Hunter, Tank Hunters, Hatred, Skyfire or Interceptor) to the same number of units as the current turn of the game. In a pure marines list this would require you to have a keen sense of the flow of the game and timing your USR of choice to apply to as many of your units as you could, in this detachment the benifits will cap out no later then turns 2-3 at the most. Nice.
Gabe: You had me at 'punk rock grey knights'.
[Let us observe a moment of silence for all the super cool Grey Knight fluff that goes unremembered because of the stigma of the Warddex and terrible automotive spray color schemes used by lazy players.]
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| This image sums up my feelings about and my effectiveness against (to date) Grey Knights. |
[Also let it be known that the Red hunter tactics give them Adamantium Will in addition to their one-use ability, making The Shield Eternal an even worse buy for their Librarians than usual.]
Ike: Star Phantoms I'm not really sure whether they gain or loose more from their chapter tactics from being in such a small detachment. Re-rolling ones on reserve rolls for deep-strikers won't apply to the properly minimallist allied detachments, but its a nice little something for the larger ones. Having everything be twin linked for a turn is always cool, but as they are here to support the guard its not really /everyone/ everyone.
Ike: Fire Hawks: Get +1S for all flamer weapons the turn they Deep Strike and HoW attacks get the same +1 strength all the time, they are also allowed to buy hand flamers for 5 points a pop (as though from the ranged weapons list). Like if the Raven Guard and Salamanders had a cousin who they could tell they were related to but weren't entirely sure who they were related by. Like the RG this one benifits the assault marines more then the tacs, but I'm pretty fond of burny jumpy space marines to sweep the pathfinders and lootas out from under my bed of the IGs ordinance worn't do for whatever reason.
[Chapter Tactics that give your models the ability to buy new gear is always nifty, but really I’m just glad that vanilla marines have a way to unlock gear that blood angles have easy and limitless access to for no sensibly explained reason.]
[This excerpt has been removed from the post and will be presented at a later date in a post which has no other focus other than how mad I am about the Blood Angel codices from 5E onward.]
Ike: Astral Claws get Stubborn as their only line-holding bonus and are only being mentioned in case someone playing them in a Badab War campagin missed it.
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That's all the sleepy stratagems for now, folks. Tune in later for a new battle report and focused look at Raven Guard and Iron Hands Chapter Tactics pitted against each other.
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| Tactics? What tactics? |
